A “Palestinian Holocaust”?
I received the following AllExperts question last night, and I just sent in my response. I did not enjoy writing it; but I didn’t have any good excuse to refuse to answer.
The question:
Boker Tov and Shalom Don,
I have a question, I was watching Yulie Cohen Gerstel’s documentary about the Holocaust and the possibility of Israel imposing the same hardships on the palestinians that the jews went through and my question is, do you think that the past is repeating itself meaning are the israelis doing the same thing to the palestinians that the nazis did to the jews years ago, what is your stance on this? Thanks.
My answer:
Dear A_____ –
I haven't seen Ms. Gerstel’s film, so I can’t comment on it in any detail.
The idea that Israel “imposes the same hardships on the Palestinians as the Jews went through during the Holocaust” would be laughable if it weren’t evil. Even to suggest such an equivalence would require complete ignorance of the two conflicts, or else an anti-Israeli bias so strong that facts cannot penetrate it.
The Holocaust was the systematic, industrialized destruction of an entire culture: fully one third of the world’s Jews were killed, and European Jewry as a living community was essentially eliminated. In particular, the Eastern European Yiddish-speaking culture and the Greek-Sephardic Ladino-speaking culture were destroyed; all that is left of these vibrant, creative cultures is fossilized remains. These Jewish communities posed absolutely no threat to Germany: there were no Jewish suicide bombings on German buses (or anywhere else), no Jewish military threat, no Jewish boycotts of Germany (at least until after the Holocaust began). The Holocaust was a gratuitous, unprovoked, brutal, and unrestrained attack on a defenseless and inoffensive people.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an entirely different matter. Palestinian terrorists have been killing innocent Jewish civilians since at least the 1920's; the Palestinian terror organizations receive substantial backing and funding from much of the Arab world as well as from Iran. While Israel’s actions in relation to the Palestinians are not always legally or morally perfect, the idea that Israel is trying to commit genocide – either by killing huge numbers of Palestinian Arabs, or by destroying their culture – is simply not borne out by the facts.
While numbers don’t tell the entire story, they are illustrative. Remember that the number of Jews in Europe pre-1939 was roughly comparable to the number of Palestinians living in or near Israel/Palestine today. In 5 1/2 years of the “al-Aqsa Intifada”, fewer than 4,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel – and of these, at least 55-60% have been combatants. Contrast this with the Holocaust: the gas chambers and crematoria at Auschwitz-Birkenau were designed to “process” 12,000 people per day; and at the height of the destruction of Hungary's Jews in the summer of 1944, as many as 46,000 Jews were killed there in a single day. (Those not “lucky” enough to be “processed” in the standard way were simply burned alive in pits in the ground.) The average number killed daily at Birkenau was not quite that high, of course – but it was still at least a couple of thousand per day; the entire Palestinian death toll in 5 1/2 years of “Intifada” is the equivalent of a day or two at one extermination camp.
[Erratum: While the figure of 46,000 Hungarian Jews killed in a single day at Birkenau is indeed mentioned in several places, including the Israeli Foreign Ministry site referenced above, I am told by some serious Holocaust researchers that this number seems unrealistically high. A more credible maximum number killed in one day at Birkenau would be about half the figure quoted – somewhere between 20,000 and 25,000 people – which is still a hell of a lot of killing to do in a single day. -DonR, 5 September 2006]
It is true that Israeli restrictions on Palestinian movement, including checkpoints and roadblocks, are onerous and inconvenient, and harmful to the Palestinian economy. It is equally true that the terrorist organizations, while supposedly working for “the liberation of Palestine”, are doing everything in their power to ensure that the roadblocks remain in place – after all, Palestinian poverty and alienation are the terrorists’ best recruiting tools. Were the Palestinians, as a collective, to renounce terrorism unequivocally and decisively, the roadblocks would quickly disappear; and in fact, if the Palestinians had truly acted in good faith to achieve statehood, they would have had their own state many years ago. So while Israel is complicit in the oppression of the Palestinian people, the Palestinians’ own leadership is very largely to blame for their people’s plight.
In the mean time, Palestinians are able to get an education (as Jews under the Nazis were not), follow professions (as Jews were not), and vote for their own leadership (as Jews were not). When and if the Palestinians decide to stop blowing up Israeli women and children, they will have their state handed to them on a silver platter, with generous foreign aid to build their economy and institutions. The Jewish victims of the Holocaust do not even have graves: those burned at Birkenau are just mud at the bottom of a lake.
Obviously, I could continue in this vein - but I think I've made my opinion on the topic clear enough. I'll be happy to deal with any follow-up questions you may have.
Best regards,
-Don Radlauer
(This post can also be found at the Guns and Butter Blog.)
Categories: Israel, Palestine, Holocaust.
Posted by Don Radlauer at 12:13 PM.
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40 Comments:
Great answer Don.
Great answer - I especially like the mathamatics, it changes the nature of the dialogue.
This is a very WEAK answer, allow me to express my Idea,Don.
I can't understand if this answer would really give any sense to anyone who is living the conflict, maybe it does to Americans ( who mostly know absolutely NOTHING about anything here in the West-Bank and Israel )( With respect )!!
I would like to comment on the following points included in your answer. Befor doing so, I would like to point out my position towards this question ( Holocaust and Isreal doing so to Palestinians ) : Well , I think that what Israel is doing to Palestinians is TOTALLY different than what the Natzi's did. The Holocaust is a completely criminal act ( as well as OCCUPATION, for sure ) , but the circumstances and motives for that brutality is totally different.
Let me please reflect on your answer :
a. " The Holocaust was a gratuitous, unprovoked, brutal, and unrestrained attack on a defenseless and inoffensive people" . The arab palestinians are , too, defenseless people when the Israeli army took control over the WestBank in 1948, forcing more than 750,000 citizens to leave their homes and land and families behind and DESTROYING more than 300 villages ( what is known as Naqba in Palestinian Term and known as Independence Day in Israeli terms ).
b. "Palestinian terrorists have been killing innocent Jewish civilians since at least the 1920's" . You made EXCELLENT 2 good points here : You totally believe that there was PALESTINIANS living there ( though some of them were terrorists ). When jews began to arrive to PALESTINE in the 1800's and 1900's this was not enough to provoke terror ? People were seeing their land being STOLEN by FOREIGNERS ? ( I would prefer to use the word STOLEN , even though I believe that some Jewish Orgs actually bought some Palestinian land , YET according to international law this is both an UNETHICAL and ILLEGAL act to do so : A super power is using its resources to dominate and change cultural and demographic characteristics of a certain area to impose new political situations ).The second good point was " the innocent jews " . I trully believe these people were innocent, and I cannot surely justify killing any civillian nomatter what .
c."“al-Aqsa Intifada”, fewer than 4,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel – and of these, at least 55-60% have been combatants." Mr Don you cannot take only certain periods of the history. You never talked about what was happening before first and second Intifada. you surely give " violence " importance when you only start discussing history and politics AFTER violence acts.
The fact that more than 40% of the people who were killed in Al-Intifada were civilians : Is it the other fraction of the number ?? Dont WE ALL have to think why these " INNOCENT " people killed, and what inflicted this ?? ISRAELI OCCUPATION CAUSED THAT DON.
d. "When and if the Palestinians decide to stop blowing up Israeli women and children, they will have their state handed to them on a silver platter, with generous foreign aid to build their economy and institutions."
As a palestinian, I do not want these GENEROUS AIDS !!! So many share this idea with me !
What plate of silver was that ?? Did u start thinking about silver plates ONLY after first and second Intifada's? Why no one was talking about giving palestinians their rights after 1967 ? Think !!!
e. "The Jewish victims of the Holocaust do not even have graves: those burned at Birkenau are just mud at the bottom of a lake."
So many Palestinians, sadly, were also burried ALIVE , in Israeli attacks agains Palestinians. take for example when Israel decided to assasinate a Paestinian ( TERRORIST ) in Gaza : It used a 500 kg bomb to blow up the whole 5 floors building to kill Shihada ( as I recall ). The Israeli army ( or I would be more objective to say : Israeli political decision making members )( sometimes dealing with IDF as a palestinian is much more easier than dealing with these ( ... I dont know what to describe them ) found that the lives of the 17 people who were killed , and other tens wounded, most of which were infants , was a secondary issue.
Israel is the occupier and it has the power as well as the will ( if it wants ) to end this pointless conflict. It's not the PALESTINIANS who, upon choosing the nonviolence methods , who can do anything.
Hope my opinion made sense to you.
thanks
Osaid,
You wrote: according to international law this is both an UNETHICAL and ILLEGAL act to do so
regarding Jews buying land.
Only if international law is based on the Nuremberg laws that excludes Jews from interacting with society in the way every other person is allowed to. Of course the PLC passed a similar law in the late 90's (though apparently it was never ratified by Arafat.)
I'dlike to respond to Osaid Rasheed, please:
(a) The Israeli army did not take control of the West Bank in 1948. The Jordanian Army did--and when they did so, they expelled or killed all of the Jews living in the land THEY occupied. The ancient Jewish Quarter of the Old City had its Jews expelled and the buildings blown into rubble.
No one 'forced' 750,000 people to leave. There were incidents where Palestinian Arabs were forced to leave--however, your recital ignores the fact that thousands left even before shots were fired, legitimately concerned about the ensuring hostilities. Most of the city of Haifa's Arab populace sensibly moved their families to safer zones like Beirut and Damascus---the Jews didn't because there was no place for the Jews to flee TO.
Furthermore, no one disputes that those refugees have a right to return to a Palestinian state. Israel cannot and should not be forced to accept a hostile and propagandized enemy population. (Please note that the PLO charter calls for Jews to be expelled from the imminent Palestinian state.)
b. Yes there are Palestinians---the Palestinian Jews of the area called their new country Israel and themselves Israeli after 1948. The Palestinian Arabs are entitled to call themselves whatever they wish, and if their new nation is to be called Palestine, then they are Palestinians.
c. No one's land was stolen by foreigners: land that was registered with the Ottoman land office and on which taxes were paid, belonged to the taxpayer. Sometimes this was an Arab farmer; more often it was a Turkish or Lebanese absentee owner who 'farmed' out the land to locals. More rarely, it was owned by a Jewish farmer. The kibbutz and moshav movements purchased their lands, sometimes twice over to satisfy the local authorities as well as the registered owners. "The Jews stole our land" is nothing more than propaganda--note also that the vast majority of land under both the Turks and the British belonged to the State---and when that state was turned over in partition to the Jews for a new Jewish state, the state-held land went with it. This would have happened on the Palestinian side as well had you not been occupied by your neighbors, the Egyptians and Jordanians, who took no steps to create a Palestinian state or even allocate the land and register it in TABU and collect taxes.
c. Hamas and other terrorist organizations that have launched suicide bombers have publicly stated that their target is Israeli women and children because their goal is to terrorize the Israelis into leaving (like, where would we go??). I don't count the numbers -- what I see is Israeli targeted killing of terror masterminds versus indiscriminate murder of civilians on buses. Men who fight other men are warriors--men who blow up buses full of children are cowards with no honor. The Palestinian embrace of such scum as 'heroes' makes the Palestinian cause look disgusting. It's why the West sees Moslems as bloodthirsty savages and sees Islam as a religion of bigotry, savagry and murder.
Please note that the Israeli Occupation (which started in 1967) was the result of Egypt, Jordan and Syria's joint acts of war against Israel and Egypt's blatant violation of the UN peace accords. The Israelis offered the land back immediately afterwards in return for peace treaties and got instead the famous "Three Nos" of the Khartoum Conference--No Peace, No Recognition -- ARAB AGGRESSION CAUSED THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION AND ARAB INTRANSIGENCE CONTINUED IT TO THIS DAY.
d. The Israelis will end the Occupation when the Palestinians recognize the right of Israel to exist per the UN mandate which partitioned the land into two states where Jews did not have to live subject to Arab discrimination and could have a sovreign nation of their own.
e. You cite one instance of overkill, which in fact prompted a government inquiry--the use of the 500 kg bomb in a civilian area.
Yet your concern is solely for Arab civilians. Where is your outrage at the Israeli civilians slaughtered by suicide bombers? Where is your outrage at Kassams and Katyushas being fired into people's homes in Kiryat Shemona, Netivot, Sderot and other border towns?
I will rouse myself to be concerned about the Palestinians when the Palestinians start to act like a civilized people who can live in the family of nations, abide by the UN resolutions, stop murdering civilians, and give up waging their war of conquest and genocide.
Hello Soccer Dad,
I don't think you disagree with me, after all, regarding this point. Let's not talk about the land Israel took control over from the year 1948-1967. regardig the land Israel is confiscating and " S T E A L I N G " from its owners in the west-bank land occupied after 1967 : Is the land that Kiryat Arba, Ma2aleh Adomim ( and few other tens of them ( mayeb hundreds ) ) a jewish land ? Answer me with a yes-no answer please and then comment.
Israeli Army, after taking control of jerusalem, did the same MISTAKES that the jordanian army did : it destroyed the whole Islamic neighbourhood and expellled all its residents. Both acts are surely wrong.
The land that has been taken and confiscated to build the wall, is it also jewish land ?
You surely can count so many mistakes palestinians are doing ( the first of which is surely suicide bombings ) , but cant you think of the so many daily Israeli violations of international and human laws in the occupied west-bank ?
I am quite pleased that you at least look at the situation in a reasonable and respectful way.
Thanks for your input.
Hello Mr. Sareit Safadi,
Thanks for your reply.
I would want to give comments on the many details included in your reply, but I would want to start with saying that I surely agree with you on SO MANY of your points.
Mr Safadi, your last idea excited me the most : "I will rouse myself to be concerned about the Palestinians when the Palestinians start to act like a civilized people who can live in the family of nations, abide by the UN resolutions, stop murdering civilians, and give up waging their war of conquest and genocide"
My comment is more of an ethical point than of a political or legal or national one. You would only start rousing yourself only after Palestinians ( the people ) act in a civilized matter ?!!
I totally disagree with this pointless violence being used by a SMALL percentage of the Palestinians, and I do not think that force will ever be the solution in our case. Before the first and second Intifada, Mr. Safadi, why didnt Israel rouse itself ? Why was violence the issue that provoked everyone to look at the problem ? Mr Safadi I am afraid to tell you that so many Israeli's are so taken by their milittary power and control that they even forgot that there are ( people ) ( Humans ) living in the West-Bank. Your political leadership was ( and probably is still ) very wrong in dealing with this conflict, with paying attention to a very important point : Israel is the key player, not the Palestinians.
The excessive force used by your political leadership against the first non-violent Intifada is a good example of the poor mentality of your leadership. Dont you agree with me ?
Ahh, as for Arafat ? Arafat had totally no insight about anything, he was just moving pieces blindly,but at the same time with regard to people's emotions. ( unfortunately being mostly inspired by Arab national ideas ).
Israel, you, and every jew should carry their responsibilities and work to bring this violence to an end. Most of your political leadership actions are concentrating on WAR and STRIKING and KILLING TERRORIST . This is really a shame.
As for Palestinians, they are also blamed. But the case is so different : the violence being used by some Palestinian organizations is being carried out on an individualized basis which is not the case for the systemic and planned STUPIDITIES of your primeministers.
I , as a Palestinian, do not feel satisfied or happy when seeing young Palestinians blow buses in Tel-Aviv.Most of these youth were brain-washed by that 'terror ' organizations ; Unfortunatelly, Israel is doing NOTHING to stop this culture of violence, on the contrary : your military responses will target more civilian Palestinians.
It is time we start working for a better tomorrow, which can be only achieved through creaing a culture of humanity and acknowledgment of each other's rights.
With thanks to your contribution.
Osaid Rashid
Mr Don you cannot take only certain periods of the history. You never talked about what was happening before first and second Intifada. you surely give " violence " importance when you only start discussing history and politics AFTER violence acts.
You want to go before the first intifada? There were numerous terrorist attacks against Israelis then, as well.
Israeli Army, after taking control of jerusalem, did the same MISTAKES that the jordanian army did : it destroyed the whole Islamic neighbourhood and expellled all its residents. Both acts are surely wrong.
False; there are several hundred thousand Muslim inhabitants living in Jerusalem today.
Mr. Rasheed.
To avoid a long diatribe, perhaps you could clarify a couple of points:
1. " The Holocaust was a gratuitous, unprovoked, brutal, and unrestrained attack on a defenseless and inoffensive people" . The arab palestinians are , too, defenseless people when the Israeli army took control over the WestBank in 1948" (West Bank was in 1967 - I'll assume this is an accident)
This is certainly a fair description of those Arab Palestinian civilians caught up in the conflict, however impossible to compare the two.
The Palestinian leadership was closely aligned with and military age Palestinians participated in the armed forces of the many Arab nations who chose to invade the newly declared State of Israel in 1948.
Please tell me which hostile armed forces the Jews were aligned with in the 20's and 30's in Germany?
2. "When jews began to arrive to PALESTINE in the 1800's and 1900's this was not enough to provoke terror ? People were seeing their land being STOLEN by FOREIGNERS ? ( I would prefer to use the word STOLEN , even though I believe that some Jewish Orgs actually bought some Palestinian land , YET according to international law this is both an UNETHICAL and ILLEGAL act to do so."
Which law?
Where on earth did you get the idea that it was against international law for a group to get together to buy a piece of property for the purpose of domicile? Expecially if done so according to the laws of the land in question at the time.
Foreigners buy land all the time. Half of Manhattan is owned by the Queen of England and the Japanese.
I'm sure that there was quite a bit of culture shock among the residents of the area when Eastern Europeans started showing up with their strange dress and customs and funny way of doing things, but terror? The immigrants of the late 1800's to early 1900's came in dribs and drabs, hardly a huge influx backed by a world power (and the Arabs of the time, being witness to the Ottoman empire, knew a world power when they saw one). Does that mean that US residents who complain about the influx of Hispanics/Indians/Moslems are terrified? Or just resistant to change?
Mr. Lesoosh, Don and all
Hello...
Commenting on your comments :
1. It was not me who compared the Holocaust with wt Israel is doing with Palestinians now. I cleared out my position BEFORE i started commenting on Don's answer. Get back to the firt idea I wrote please.
No way to compare the two, I agree. This was my point and Don's too.
2. What " land in question " ? Are you serious ??!!
What was happening was not a " change " !!! It made us reach what we are suffering now !!
Those who bought that " PIECE of land for domicile " soon had bigger dreams and were even claiming that the WHOLE land is originally belonging to them ( according to religious beliefs )!
Anyway your idea was not clear for me, or maybe I couldnt understand it well.
I value your response Lesoosh.
Thanks
Hello Eyal..
Go back to history records and check what the IDF did in Jerusalem after capturing it. this is a FACT well known for all.The IDF also destroyed more than 300 arab villages after 1948. Can you deny this fact ?
" You want to go before the first intifada? There were numerous terrorist attacks against Israelis then, as well." You are right. Agree with you. But these attacks were a spontaneous and natural response on OCCUPATION. In all history books that I read : every occupied nation was resisting the occupier. Same story when Natzi's invaded Poland, Russia, France ...etc. Dont you agree ? ( try to give a yes-no answer plz )
Anyway. Eyal : can you explain to me the well established historical fact that IDF destroyed few hundred Arab villages ( lets not talk about who and how many were killed ) ??? Plz dont start with putting doubts on this fact !
Don is also invited to answer. Would you Don ?
Thanks all.
disgusting that as a final outrage we are forced to retell the evil done against us.. to prove that it really happened?!?
well done don
thank you,
Dry Bones
Israel's Political Comic Strip Since 1973
Mr. Rasheed:
1. You said: "defenseless and inoffensive people" . The arab palestinians are , too, defenseless people" to me that IS a direct comparison. However, as you say twice that you do not equate the two, I will have to accept that the misunderstanding is due to differing abilities in the English language.
2. I'll admit I am having trouble with your response. It appears to me that you are trying to compress 80 years of history (late 1900's to 1967) into a single sentence. That covers numerous (and very different) "aliyah" movements, World War One, World War Two, the fall of the Ottoman Empire, partition, the wars of 1948, 1956 and 1967 and numerous other incursions, defensive responses and other hostilities in the region. From the first small aliyah to the formation of Israel a lot happened and each event was cumulative.
Irrespective, the purchase of land by individuals or groups for individual or group use is NOT in any way immoral or illegal.
It would be helpful if you would focus on a smaller issue and point out specifics for response.
don - I checked out the allexperts site. Your fellow "experts" are fascinating - especially the one who focuses on Revelations as his area of expertise!
Mr. Rasheed:
"Those who bought that " PIECE of land for domicile " soon had bigger dreams and were even claiming that the WHOLE land is originally belonging to them ( according to religious beliefs )!"
Again, you are trying to encapsulate 100 odd years and millions of people into one sentence. The zionist movement in and of itself has changed greatly over the years. Some zionist groups were very socialist and planned on living side by side with their arab neighbours, some wanted their own country, some are secular, some religious (actually a fairly new development). The real push for partition came after WWII and the desparation the Jews at the time felt for the need for a "safe haven".
I do not believe that all of those Arabs deserved to lose their homes at all, I think the fact that they did is a great shame. However to portray all of that history and all of those people as the story of one huge powerful group that suddenly decided to go to great effort to victimize some poor innocent strangers is a huge distortion.
As to the "300" villages (give or take a few), they were not all destroyed, a large numbr of them in fact still stand (although they are falling apart) or were inhabited by others.
I would also like a reference for what you claimed "happened" when Israel took over the old city. The old city has a very large and vibrant Moslem population that has lived there for centuries. There was one area that was cleared: the few streets that bordered the Western Wall. And of course the Jewish quarter which was obliterated by the Jordanians.
I'm glad to see I'm almost in exceptional company, because the comment I was about to leave completely echoes Yaakov Kirschen's, which clearly points out the shame and outrage in, not only having millions of innocent Jews needlessly gassed and cremated, but that we should have to constantly prove it, and on top of that (this is the part I was going to add) have to prove WHY there is an ocean of a difference between a deliberate, systematic murder of an entire people -- a genocide! -- and the deaths which occur from the quote unquote Jewish occupation of Jewish land.
Arabs living in Israel arbitrarily blow up Jews on buses and in falafel eateries ... and we're the one's creating the Holocaust?
It's downright offensive.
Osaid Rasheed
Yes, the IDF destroyed a number of villages during 1948. Of course, the flip side is that the Arab armies destroyed a number of Jewish communities in that same war (note that while a considerable number of Palestinians remained in Israel post-1948, the areas which became known as the West Bank and the Gaza Strip retained not a single Jew after the war).
As for anti-Israeli terrorism, you seem to insist on characterizing it as "sponteneous" and "disorganized". Well, then, several questions:
1) If it's a response to the occupation, why did terrorism precede (significantly) 1967?
2) Ever heard of the PLO or Hamas? They are organizations, which (along with several others), planned and carried out most of the attacks against Israel. So the terrorism was hardly disorganized.
Osaid,
I see nothing that I wrote that agrees with you.
You wrote that it was illegal for Jews to buy land according to international law; my response was that that's only true if international is based on Nazi law.
Short answer to these comparisons:
How many buses did the Jews blow up on the streets of Berlin?
Don, good answer. If you look at the destruction of Arab villages in context than you see that this took place during war and not during peacetime.
It is entirely different when you look at it this way.
Ben David...
Hello all...
Jews are now demolishing Palestinian houses with and without excuses ( look at the international websites agains the demolision of palestinian houses ).
The few hundreds of houses demolished in Rafah ( so as to create a safety zone and prevent smugling guns through tunnels connecting Rafah with alareesh in egypt ) is also a CRIME. It is not a crime by the jewish people , it is a crime by your STUPID political leadership.
Thanks
Soccer dad.
hello
you surely can see things in your own way.
" Freedom to see "!
nice day
Dear mr. Rasheed,
allow me to respond to your points.
1. Why didn't Israel rouse itself before the first and second intifada?
Because before the first and second intifadas, Israel was trying to treat with the former occupying powers of Gaza and the West Bank, Egypt and Jordan, both of whom still claimed sovreignty over those areas and both of whom refused to treat with Israel. The Israeli government didn't view the Arabs of these regions as "Palestinians" so much as Jordanians and Egyptians, and hence, enemies as their respective countries were officially at war with Israel.
2.. We'd probably agree that both sides have acted stupidly at points---my view, which is probably different from yours, is that Israel's blinkered view of things is due to living for over 50 years in a state of siege by neighboring hostile Arab states and their puppet militias. When Jihadi Islami blows up a bus and receives praise from Iran or payment (in the past) from Iraq, it's hard to see the "Palestinian"--one sees instead a soldier of Iran, Iraq or Syria....
3. we have a chicken and egg situation--which should come first, Israeli peace efforts and withdrawal, or Palestinian cease-fire and negotiation. Frankly, I was disillusioned about Palestinian peace after Arafat refused Barak's offer. Could the offer have been better? Perhaps -- but by walking away and calling for violence instead of continuing negotiating, Arafat acted in bad faith and lost the legitimacy of the Palestinian cause in my eyes. He wanted war, not peace--and the election of Hamas causes me to believe that the Palestinians want war and not peace. Arab civilization criticizes the religious crusades of the medeival Europeans---but the Palestinians are oblivious to the fact that they are waging a 'crusade' of their own to rid the land of Jews. This racist crusade is why Israel reacts (or overreacts in your view) so strongly and sometimes unwisely--we have been threatened with genocide in the past, and genocide happened while the world stood by and did nothing; now genocide is threatened again by Iran and has been threatened repeatedly since 1948---this makes it very hard for us to respond wisely since our fear is that any politic response to mass murder or kassams will be interpreted as weakness. The Gaza withdrawal is an excellent example--instead of receiving praise from the Palestinians for withdrawing voluntarily, what we got instead was the claim that 'the struggle (i.e. terrorism) works so we should keep it up."
Finally, with all due respect, I am Mrs. Safadi rather than Mr. Safadi--Mr. Safadi is my husband.
Mrs. Safadi,
Hello...
I do understand more about the jewish people and their journey when I read your comments. Thanks.
I, as many others, feel that the violence acts against civilians is a shame. I do feel and think that dealing with each other in the violent way is a waste of time and resources.
I do believe that Isreal is still the key player in this conflict. I think that everyone of you ( jews and zionists and israelis first )should do something.
So many idiots at both sides are taking the lead, and I think thats a big mistake and a shame to us all.
I shall reply later to your points , excuse me I have exams this week !
Untill then, Have a lovely time.
Thanks for your replies.
Lisoosh
Hello...
You made so many things clear in your answer.
I am trying to look at the things where we agree about not at the points that widen the already existing gap, because the aim of all this is to ( communicate ) and understand the other side's ideas.
I will reply to you soon, and yes, excuse my ignorance, English is my second language.
I will reply to your points soon, I am so busy this week.
have a nice day
Eyal,
hello
thanks for your replies.
I would like to respond to your comments but later this week, plz.
Thanks for your points.
your questions seem very exciting !! I would want to answer them when I have a better concentration !
I would want to read more about the ' haganah ' and the other jewish ORGS , those old days, before I reply. Maybe that will help me give u a better answer.
Regardless of all, thanks again for your input.
Have a peaceful day.
Mr. Rasheed--
I look forward to your comments. I will be patient for I, too, remember the importance of exams. Good luck on your exams, and come back to us when you can!
Shalom--sarit safadi
Mrs. Sarit
Thanks.
I will come back soon.
do u blog ( u have ur own blog ) ?
later, take care.
Hello Don and all...
A QUESTION for you sir. ( and for everyone )
Did you hear of the news in Ramallah yesterday ? An IDF force undercover sneaked inside mid Ramallah to arrest a " terrorist ". The force was discovered by civilians and clashes started ( As fas as i know ppl were throwing them stones ). Four palestinians were killed and 35 injured.
My question is : what do you think was your political leaders who agreed on such an act thinking about ??
Salaam, Mr. Rasheed--
I don't have a blog. I started one once, but didn't keep it up. I merely read other people's blogs, including the Palestinian blogs in English,the Iraqi and Iranian blogs. I like to see the perspective of the everyday people and not only what the government or the news sees fit to tell us.
Sarit Safadi
Great post!
Thank you - I referenced it on my blog.
Maybe they were thinking they should catch that terrorist and the Palestinian police aren't about to do anything?(Islamic Jihad - which this guy belonged to - has been the most active PAlestinian faction lately as far as attacks against Israel go).
Hello Eyal...
Was that your answer ? ? Are you convinced of it ???
I think IDF rules of engagements were followed. If people are stupid enough to throw stones at armed soldiers in the middle of an anti-terror operation (stones which BTW _can_ kill siad soldiers) then bad things may happen.
Would you prefer Israel do things the safe and easy way: carpet bomb Palestinian population centers? Israel _could_ do it and has not. I suspect if the Palestinian leadership could carpet bomb Jewish population centers, they would do it in a heartbeat.
That ' middle anti-terror operation ' was the middle of a market in the center of a civilian area .
I understand that you are 'defending' this ( stupid ) ( and maybe terrorist ) 'operation ' !!!
??
Indeed I am. That terrorists base their operations in marketplaces is a matter of good PR for fellow travelers like yourself.
Hello again...
Mark : I prefer nothing of what you mentioned.
Mrs. Safadi ... I have added a blog to discuss some events starting from May 2006..I would value your contribution http://palestine-vs-israel.blogspot.com/
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commenting on your notes " Frankly, I was disillusioned about Palestinian peace after Arafat refused Barak's offer. Could the offer have been better? Perhaps -- but by walking away and calling for violence instead of continuing negotiating, Arafat acted in bad faith and lost the legitimacy of the Palestinian cause in my eyes."
Yes..the offer could have been MUCH MORE better. Have u seen the offer that your PM offered ? only a psycho would accept it !!! The offer has completely ignored the settlements built in 1967 land, it proposed giving clusters of land only with no connectivity, and full israeli control over water, borders, economy, and everything.
the offer your government proposed was REALLY very little.
If Arafat had accepted the offere, he would have been viewed as a man who betrayed his peoples hope for a better future.
Arafat,on the other hand, was in a vry bad situation and I believe that he acted VERY RIGHT in that given circumstances. Any way the point here is totally new : what isrel is offering and what Palestinians want... Israel has been very reluctant in offering ANYTHING to palestinians, this is the truth.
I am sure, though, that Israel is ready to give alot, and Palestinians are ready to accept less in the future.
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From a community that experienced the holocaust, I expected a lot more humanity. To watch Israel mess the lives of millions of palestenians, is shameful. F16s and tanks against the human body and the Qassam.
Yes - it may not be a palestenian 'holocaust'. But freedom struggle against an oppressor it is.
Yes Israel will most probably prevail, but if the other party does, I know no one in my set of friends would shed a tear.
You need some historical perspective, Mark -- this battle didn't start in 1967. It started in 1948 when large Arab armies, armed to the teeth, industriously trained by their French and British overlords, invaded the nascent Israel and tried to destroy the poorly armed and under-armed rag-tag Israeli army...it was the Arabs who had the air force, the tanks, the modern weapons and they nearly destroyed Israel. The balance of power always remained with the Arabs, always well armed by various Big Powers--British, French, Russian and American. (America's contribution to Egypt's arsenal is impressive even today.) Israel pushed back these Arab armies in 1948, again in 1967 and 1973.
The Palestinians were occupied by Egypt and Jordan from 1948 to 1967. They were denied civil rights, the right to build and attend universities, to become citizens and vote in Egypt (some were allowed to become Jordanian citizens), to build new housing in those occupied territories, and were deliberately kept in perpetual poverty and misery so Egypt, Jordan and Syria could, between losing wars, arm the desperate and tell them to go kill the Jews since it was all Israel's fault.
Had the European and Pan-nationalist Arab powers stayed OUT of it in 1948, there would be two states today, side-by-side, with inextricably bound economies to benefit both Israel and Palestine -- but the racism of Arab pan-nationalism pandered by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia et al had demanded the death of a Jewish state and the triumphalist establishment of an Islamic Arab state in its place.
I feel very badly for the Palestinians--they are not 'oppressed' by the Israelis so much as they are brainwashed into perpetual attempted genocide by their own leadership's spin on history.
What would you prefer, Mark? That the Israelis simply lay down their F16s and tanks and allow the Palestinians to murder them? There have been no Israelis, no Jews, in Gaza this past nine months--there is no reason for Gazan rocket fire into Israel, Gazan aggression against Israelis EXCEPT for the sole purpose of inciting their Holy War of Conquest....by the way, do you speak Arabic? "Fatah" means "Conquest." That's a hint to their intentions.....
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